Interview with Yo-Yo Ma on Intonation, Practice, 

and the Role of Music in Our Lives

馬友友談音準(zhǔn)、練琴和音樂(lè)

在生活中的角色

By Martin Steinberg

馬友友談音準(zhǔn)、練琴和音樂(lè)在生活中的角色

專訪馬友友丨我與絲路樂(lè)團(tuán)

This seems to be fodder for a very important book on society.

問(wèn)：這些素材如果寫(xiě)成一本書(shū)的話一定會(huì)在社會(huì)上引起很大反響的。

No, just musings of a middle-aged person going through what everybody goes through. I’d like to be able to think about these things, but also be able to try and play in tune. But while I’m playing in tune, not to obsess over intonation, but the obsession of trying to play in tune because transcending technique allows me then to communicate the content.

馬友友：不是的，這些只是一個(gè)中年人的沉思，而這些思考每個(gè)人都會(huì)經(jīng)歷。我希望自己可以思考這些事情，但也能演奏并且能拉得準(zhǔn)。當(dāng)我演奏的時(shí)候也不會(huì)去過(guò)度在意音準(zhǔn)，但也不能完全不在意，因?yàn)橹挥性竭^(guò)了技術(shù)這道坎才能談傳達(dá)內(nèi)容的問(wèn)題。

Do you still practice a lot?

您現(xiàn)在依然會(huì)做很多練習(xí)嗎？

I actually enjoy practicing more and more . . .  as a child, I practiced because I had to practice and you didn’t want to mess up. But that’s not a good thing. You want to please your teacher, you want to please your parents, you want to please your peers. And now I practice because I’ve experienced so much love that you practice out of loving a phrase, loving motivic change, loving a structure or harmony change or the way a sound can get to something.

實(shí)際上我越來(lái)越享受練習(xí)了……我小時(shí)候會(huì)練習(xí)，因?yàn)槲也坏貌痪毲伲阋膊粫?huì)想去把事情搞砸。但那并不是太好的事情。你想讓老師滿意，讓家長(zhǎng)滿意，也使同齡人對(duì)你心服口服。現(xiàn)在我是為了熱愛(ài)而練習(xí)，會(huì)因?yàn)橄矚g某一個(gè)樂(lè)句而練習(xí)，或者是因?yàn)橄矚g主旋律的變化，喜愛(ài)某一種織體結(jié)構(gòu)或者和聲變化，抑或是因?yàn)槟骋环N聲音能夠?qū)虿煌臇|西。

I think that part of practicing is great because it unites what you want to do in engineering, as in technically, where do you put your arms and your fingers and your body—micro movements—with that desire and the feeling of what it needs to be. That’s a wonderful process because it’s a constant of going toward something bigger than the notes and yourself, and very lovingly so.

我覺(jué)得練習(xí)的這部分很棒，因?yàn)檫@會(huì)結(jié)合一部分工程學(xué)的東西，從技術(shù)上來(lái)說(shuō)，你如何放置你的手臂、手指和身體十分重要——細(xì)小的動(dòng)作——身體的感覺(jué)心中也有數(shù)。這是一個(gè)妙不可言的過(guò)程，因?yàn)槟切┮舴獾臇|西會(huì)被打磨得越來(lái)越完善，離目標(biāo)越來(lái)越近的同時(shí)，你自己也會(huì)隨之而成長(zhǎng)，這讓人感覺(jué)非常親切。

Whenever I catch myself playing something that sounds mechanical but dead, it’s because either I’m not paying attention or it’s something difficult that I haven’t solved. Sort of like a physicality issue that, you know, sudden tension, so I freeze up and become more internalized, so I can’t love it. Loving something implies going outside yourself and fear means retreating into yourself. I’m scared. Well, go back into yourself. 

每當(dāng)我發(fā)現(xiàn)自己演奏出來(lái)的聲音很機(jī)械沒(méi)有生命，要么就是因?yàn)槲覜](méi)有集中注意力，要不就是有一些困難的地方我還沒(méi)有解決。這是物質(zhì)層面的問(wèn)題，你知道的，身體會(huì)突然緊張，所以我會(huì)突然從內(nèi)而外地僵住，所以我沒(méi)辦法去愛(ài)它。愛(ài)一種事物意味著要從自我中脫離出來(lái)，而恐懼意味著縮回自我的軀殼中。我害怕。那你就回到自我中去吧。

That’s a metaphor for societal fears when a whole people are scared of something that they can’t control and sort of hits them, what do they do? It becomes more tight, they will make much, much more conservative decisions. The counteracting of that is culture. Hey, wait a minute, I want to know what that fear is. I’m going to research that fear. 

這就好像社交恐懼癥，一群人害怕一種他們不能掌控的事物，甚至讓人大腦一片空白，他們會(huì)怎么做呢？當(dāng)情況緊張起來(lái)的時(shí)候，他們就會(huì)作出更加保守的決定。這種碰撞我們稱之為文化。等一下，我想知道那種恐懼是什么。我想去調(diào)查它。

What exactly is that fear? Is it exactly what I think it is? Is that what I feel or can I analyze it? What’s the truth behind the fear? So you kind of have to look at that—that’s a key in performance. When someone performs, you want that person to be open and not to have any barriers. Any barriers that are set up between the performer and the audience actually impedes the communication of what needs to be.

那種恐懼到底是什么？是我想的那樣嗎？是我能感受或者分析的事物嗎？恐懼背后的真相又是什么？所以你不得不去關(guān)注它——這是演奏中的關(guān)鍵之一。當(dāng)一個(gè)人演奏的時(shí)候，你會(huì)希望他完全敞開(kāi)心扉，不去設(shè)置任何障礙。任何演奏者和觀眾之間的障礙都會(huì)影響應(yīng)有的交流。

I often tell people the world needs more Yo-Yo Mas, and this is a perfect example. Just these ideas alone, if people could hear them, everything that’s headed in the wrong direction can turn around.

我經(jīng)常說(shuō)這個(gè)世界需要更多的馬友友出現(xiàn)，這就是最好的證明。如果人們能聽(tīng)到這些想法，所有誤入歧途的事情都會(huì)被扭轉(zhuǎn)。

I don’t know. We’re so invested in thinking, in trying not to screw up. Basically, I have your back. We don’t want to make obvious mistakes, so we cover up. But actually, to really create trust, you have to trust that it’s OK to make a mistake, and you’re not going to be punished for it. We acknowledge and do better the next time. It’s one of the hardest things to do because we don’t want to look like fools.

我不知道。我們花了太多時(shí)間去思考，只是為了不把事情弄糟。比如說(shuō)，我支持你。因?yàn)槲覀儾⒉幌敕负艿图?jí)的錯(cuò)誤，所以我們會(huì)掩蓋事實(shí)。事實(shí)上，如果想建立真正的信任，你就要相信犯錯(cuò)并沒(méi)什么大不了，你也不會(huì)因?yàn)檫@個(gè)而受懲罰。我們吸取了經(jīng)驗(yàn)教訓(xùn)，下次就會(huì)做得更好。這是最難做到的事情之一，因?yàn)槲覀兌疾幌肟雌饋?lái)像傻瓜一樣。

 [New York Times writer] David Brooks has been talking lately about what we work for: our CVs or do we work for our eulogies? There are different things that you work for, curriculum vitae, and people talk about a person differently in the eulogy. There you talk more about character—this and that—and so which one are we working for? That’s a kind of philosophical question, isn’t it? 

David Brooks（紐約時(shí)報(bào)作家）最近談到我們?yōu)槭裁炊Γ?strong>為了我們的簡(jiǎn)歷還是為了他人對(duì)你的評(píng)價(jià)呢？有很多你可以為之努力的事情，簡(jiǎn)歷，或者是別人如何去評(píng)價(jià)你。你可能會(huì)想到人的品性——各種不同的性格特征——所以我們到底是為了什么在努力呢？

That comes with a philosophical part of culture. What are we as a society working toward? So what are we working for in a community, what are we working for in a political party, what are we working for in classical music?

這有點(diǎn)像哲學(xué)問(wèn)題，不是嗎？這就和文化的哲學(xué)部分有關(guān)了。當(dāng)社會(huì)不斷向前發(fā)展的時(shí)候，我們的角色又是什么呢？我們?cè)谝粋€(gè)群體中，或是一個(gè)政黨里為了什么而努力，在古典音樂(lè)中我們的努力方向又是什么呢？

You’re about to perform the Elgar Concerto, and have done so many times. How much time must you devote to it at this point?

您即將演奏埃爾加的大提琴協(xié)奏曲，而您已經(jīng)表演這首曲子很多次了。這個(gè)時(shí)候您會(huì)在這上面花多少時(shí)間呢？

The thing is, you know, there is engineering, neuromuscular finger work, and there’s head work. So for anybody who’s really really passionate, basically it’s whatever it takes and it’s also head work. It’s kind of all the time. It’s sort of like you’re downloading a program in your computer, it’s in your brain. 

你知道，練習(xí)的時(shí)候會(huì)關(guān)系到工程學(xué)原理，手指的神經(jīng)肌肉運(yùn)動(dòng)，同時(shí)大腦也要運(yùn)轉(zhuǎn)。所以對(duì)那些對(duì)自己所做的事有極大熱情的人來(lái)說(shuō)，需要付出自己的全部才能將事情做好，大腦的思考也少不了。這個(gè)過(guò)程會(huì)一直持續(xù)不間斷。就好像你在電腦上下載一個(gè)程序，而這個(gè)東西在你的大腦里。

When I go on to do the Elgar, I start thinking about it, on and off, all the time. So I’m thinking, “Huh, how about trying it this way?” So you’re always in some ways trying to hear something a certain way, solving a problem a certain way, and rethinking it and thinking there’s a better way to build this mousetrap. So you want to align your physical self and your mental self into the state of mind that is required of that piece.

我開(kāi)始演奏埃爾加的時(shí)候，也會(huì)開(kāi)始一刻不停地思考，思考各個(gè)方面的細(xì)節(jié)。所以我會(huì)想，“唔，試試這種方式怎么樣？”所以你總會(huì)開(kāi)發(fā)理解同一事物的不同方式，用一種方式解決問(wèn)題，然后重新去思考這個(gè)問(wèn)題，想想會(huì)不會(huì)有更好的解決問(wèn)題的方法。所以你會(huì)把自己調(diào)動(dòng)起來(lái)，無(wú)論是肉體還是精神，把它調(diào)動(dòng)到那首作品所需要的狀態(tài)。

Do you ever envision your life after cello?

您想象過(guò)不演奏大提琴之后的人生嗎？

Like après-ski, hot chocolate by the fireplace, with pizza?

就像滑完雪之后，在火爐旁就著披薩喝熱巧？

You’re not going to lose any weight like that.

吃這個(gè)可不會(huì)讓體重下降。

You’re right. Maybe a cup of herbal tea and some nuts. Well, I’ve always been interested in people and culture and arts and sciences and philosophy and typology, so I think I’m always going to be thinking about it, and the older I get, the more I’ll get interested in young people because that’s another form of culture.

你說(shuō)得沒(méi)錯(cuò)。也許再來(lái)一杯花草茶和一點(diǎn)堅(jiān)果。我一直對(duì)人對(duì)文化對(duì)藝術(shù)科學(xué)哲學(xué)還有象征主義很感興趣，所以我覺(jué)得我會(huì)一直思考這些事情，隨著我年齡逐漸變大，我對(duì)年輕人的興趣也會(huì)漸漸增長(zhǎng)，因?yàn)槟且彩俏幕牧硪环N表現(xiàn)形式。

The young people’s world—we may occupy the same space, but they will think differently and have many different reasons to do what they do and I’m deeply curious about that. I like to think of it in K through 12 and beyond and how people learn—why they learn—and so I will always be thinking about these things.

年輕人的世界。我們可能共享同一個(gè)空間，但是我們思考的方式不同，做事情的原因也不一樣，我對(duì)這些東西十分好奇。我會(huì)像將k和12對(duì)等一樣思考它們，還有這些以外的其他事物，比如說(shuō)人們是如何學(xué)習(xí)的，他們?yōu)槭裁磳W(xué)習(xí)？正是因?yàn)檫@些，我會(huì)一直思考這些問(wèn)題的。