Questioner: Can I live differently from what I am myself? I'm suddenly realizing that if I am to live in a totally different way there must be a new birth in me, a new mind and heart, new eyes. And I realize also that this hasn't happened. I live the way I am, and the way I am has made life as it is. But where does one go from there?

發(fā)問(wèn)者：我能以不同于我自己現(xiàn)在的方式生活嗎？我突然意識(shí)到，如果我要一種完全不同的生活，我就必須新生，重生一顆新的頭腦和心靈，一雙新的眼睛。我也意識(shí)到這還沒(méi)有發(fā)生。我以現(xiàn)有的方式生活著，我現(xiàn)有的生活方式把生活變成了現(xiàn)在這個(gè)樣子。但是一個(gè)人要從這里走向哪里呢？

Krishnamurti: You don't go anywhere from there! There is no going anywhere. The going, or the searching for the ideal, for what we think is better, gives us a feeling that we are progressing, that we are moving towards a better world. But this movement is no movement at all because the end has been projected out of our misery, confusion, greed and envy. So this end, which is supposed to be the opposite of what is, is really the same as what is, it is engendered by what is. Therefore it creates the conflict between what is and what should be. This is where our basic confusion and conflict arises. The end is not over there, not on the other side of the wall; the beginning and the end are here.

克：從這兒你哪也不去！也沒(méi)有什么地方可去。去向，或者追尋理想，追求我們認(rèn)為更好的，給我們一種感覺(jué)，好像我們正在進(jìn)步，我們正在朝著一個(gè)更好的世界前進(jìn)。但是這種運(yùn)動(dòng)根本不是運(yùn)動(dòng)，因?yàn)槟墙K點(diǎn)是由我們的苦難、困惑、貪婪和嫉妒投射出來(lái)的。所以這個(gè)終點(diǎn)，本以為是與現(xiàn)狀相反的，實(shí)際上和現(xiàn)狀是一樣的，它正是由現(xiàn)狀產(chǎn)生的。因此，就在現(xiàn)在如何和應(yīng)當(dāng)如何之間制造了沖突。這就是我們的困惑和沖突根本的發(fā)源地。終點(diǎn)并不在那邊，并不在墻的另一邊；起點(diǎn)和終點(diǎn)都在這兒。

Questioner: Wait a minute, sir, please; I don't understand this at all. Are you telling me that the ideal of what should be is the result of not understanding what is? Are you telling me that what should be is what is, and that this movement from what is to what should be isn't really a movement at all?

發(fā)問(wèn)者：請(qǐng)等一下，先生；我根本不明白這點(diǎn)。你是不是在告訴我，理想中的應(yīng)當(dāng)如何就是不了解現(xiàn)狀的結(jié)果？你是不是在告訴我，應(yīng)當(dāng)如何就是現(xiàn)在如何，從現(xiàn)在如何向應(yīng)當(dāng)如何行進(jìn)的這種運(yùn)動(dòng)，根本就不是真的運(yùn)動(dòng)？

Krishnamurti: It is an idea; it is fiction. If you understand what is, what need is there for what should be?

克：那是個(gè)想法；是虛構(gòu)的。如果你了解了現(xiàn)狀，還有什么必要有應(yīng)當(dāng)如何？

Questioner: Is that so? I understand what is. I understand the bestiality of war, the horror of killing, and because I understand it I have this ideal of not killing. The ideal is born out of my understanding of what is, therefore it is not an escape.

發(fā)問(wèn)者：是這樣嗎？我了解現(xiàn)狀。我了解戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)的殘忍、殺戮的恐怖，因?yàn)槲伊私膺@些，所以我有了不殺生的理想。這個(gè)理想誕生于我對(duì)現(xiàn)狀的了解，所以這不是一種逃避。

Krishnamurti: If you understand that killing is terrible do you have to have an ideal in order not to kill? Perhaps we are not clear about the word understanding. When we say we understand something, in that is implied, isn't it, that we have learnt all it has to say? We have explored it and discovered the truth or the falseness of it. This implies also, doesn't it, that this understanding is not an intellectual affair, but that one has felt it deeply in one's heart? There is understanding only when the mind and the heart are in perfect harmony. Then one says 'I have understood this, and finished with it', and it no longer has the vitality to breed further conflict. Do we both give the same meaning to that word understand?

克：如果你了解了殺戮是可怕的，你還要有個(gè)不去殺生的理想嗎？也許我們還沒(méi)弄清了解這個(gè)詞的意思。當(dāng)我們說(shuō)我們了解了某事，這難道不就意味著，我們已經(jīng)學(xué)到了它要說(shuō)的一切？我們已經(jīng)探索過(guò)了，發(fā)現(xiàn)了它的真實(shí)或者它的虛假。這也意味著，這種了解不是一件智識(shí)上的事情，而是一個(gè)人在他的內(nèi)心深處深切地體會(huì)到了，不是嗎？只有當(dāng)頭腦和心靈處于完美的和諧中時(shí)，才有這種了解。然后一個(gè)人說(shuō)“我了解了這點(diǎn)，結(jié)束了它”，它再也不會(huì)有進(jìn)一步滋生沖突的能力了。我們是不是都給了解這個(gè)詞賦予了相同的含義？

Questioner: I hadn't before, but now I see that what you are saying is true. Yet I honestly don't understand, in that way, the total disorder of the world, which, as you so rightly pointed out, is my own disorder. How can I understand it? How can I completely learn about the disorder, the entire disorder and confusion of the world, and of myself?

發(fā)問(wèn)者：我以前沒(méi)有看到，但是現(xiàn)在我看到你所說(shuō)的是真實(shí)的。然而誠(chéng)實(shí)地說(shuō)，我并沒(méi)有以那種方式了解到整個(gè)世界的失序，正如你確切指出的那樣，那失序就是我自己的失序。我怎樣才能了解這點(diǎn)？我要怎樣才能完全了解失序，世界的和我自己的徹底失序和困惑？

Krishnamurti: Do not use the word how, please.

克：請(qǐng)不要用怎樣這個(gè)詞。

Questioner: Why not?

發(fā)問(wèn)者：為什么不能用？

Krishnamurti: The how implies that somebody is going to give you a method, a recipe, which, if you practise it, will bring about understanding. Can understanding ever come about through a method? Understanding means love and the sanity of the mind. And love cannot be practised or taught. The sanity of the mind can only come about when there is clear perception, seeing things as they are unemotionally, not sentimentally. Neither of these two things can be taught by another, nor by a system invented by yourself or by another.

克：怎樣這個(gè)詞意味著某人要給你一個(gè)方法，一個(gè)訣竅，如果你練習(xí)它，會(huì)帶來(lái)了解。了解難道能夠通過(guò)方法得來(lái)嗎？了解意味著愛(ài)和心智的清明健全。而愛(ài)無(wú)法練習(xí)或者教授。只有清晰地覺(jué)知，不感情用事、不多愁善感地如實(shí)看清事情本身，心智的清明健全才能發(fā)生。這兩件事都無(wú)法由別人教授，也不能由你自己或者別人發(fā)明的體系傳授。

Questioner: You are too persuasive, sir, or is it perhaps that you are too logical? Are you trying to influence me to see things as you see them?

發(fā)問(wèn)者：你太有說(shuō)服力了，先生，還是也許你太擅長(zhǎng)邏輯了？你是在試圖影響我讓我像你那樣看待事情嗎？

Krishnamurti: God forbid! Influence in any form is destructive of love. Propaganda to make the mind sensitive, alert, will only make it dull and insensitive. So we are in no way trying to influence you or persuade you, or make you depend. We are only pointing out, exploring together. And to explore together you must be free, both of me and of your own prejudices and fears. Otherwise you go round and round in circles. So we must go back to our original question: how am I to live in this world? To live in this world we must deny the world. By that we mean: deny the ideal, the war, the fragmentation, the competition, the envy and so on. We don't mean deny the world as a schoolboy revolts against his parents. We mean deny it because we understand it. This understanding is negation.

克里希那穆提：但愿不是如此！任何形式的影響都破壞了愛(ài)。想讓心智變得敏感、警覺(jué)的宣傳活動(dòng)，只會(huì)將其變得遲鈍和不敏感。所以我們根本不是在試圖影響你或者說(shuō)服你，或者讓你依賴(lài)。我們只是指出來(lái)，一起探索。而要一起探索，你必須從我和你自己的偏見(jiàn)和恐懼中解脫出來(lái)。否則你只是在來(lái)回兜圈子。所以我們必須回到我們最初的問(wèn)題：我要怎樣活在這個(gè)世界上？要生活在這個(gè)世界，我們必須否定這個(gè)世界。這意味著：否定理想、戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)、支離破碎、競(jìng)爭(zhēng)、嫉妒，等等。我們說(shuō)否定這個(gè)世界的意思，并不是像男學(xué)生那樣反抗他的父母。我們的意思是：因?yàn)槲覀兞私饬怂?，所以否定它。這種了解就是否定。

Questioner: I am out of my depth.

發(fā)問(wèn)者：這超出了我能理解的深度。

Krishnamurti: You said you do not want to live in the confusion, the dishonesty and ugliness of this world. So you deny it. But from what background do you deny it, why do you deny it? Do you deny it because you want to live a peaceful life, a life of complete security and enclosure, or do you deny it because you see what it actually is?

克：你說(shuō)你不想生活在這個(gè)困惑、不誠(chéng)實(shí)和丑陋的世界中。所以你否定它。但你是從什么背景來(lái)否定它的，你為什么要否定它？你否定它，是不是因?yàn)槟阆脒^(guò)和平的生活，一種徹底安全和封閉的生活，還是因?yàn)槟闳鐚?shí)看清了它所以你才否定它的？

Questioner: I think I deny it because I see around me what is taking place. Of course my prejudices and fear are all involved. So it is a mixture of what is actually taking place and my own anxiety.

發(fā)問(wèn)者：我想我否定它是因?yàn)槲铱吹搅酥車(chē)l(fā)生著的事情。當(dāng)然，我的偏見(jiàn)和恐懼都包含其中。所以這是摻雜了實(shí)際發(fā)生的事情和我自己的焦慮的一種混合物。

Krishnamurti: Which predominates, your own anxiety or the actual seeing of what is around you? If fear predominates, then you can't see what is actually going on around you, because fear is darkness, and in darkness you can see absolutely nothing. If you realize that, then you can see the world actually as it is, then you can see yourself actually as you are. Because you are the world, and the world is you; they are not two separate entities.

克：哪個(gè)占主導(dǎo)地位，是你自己的焦慮，還是真實(shí)地看到了你周?chē)囊磺?？如果恐懼占主?dǎo)，那么你就不能看清你周?chē)鷮?shí)際上發(fā)生著什么，因?yàn)榭謶质呛诎?，在黑暗中你根本什么都看不?jiàn)。如果你意識(shí)到了這一點(diǎn)，那么你就能如實(shí)地看清這個(gè)世界了，如實(shí)地看清你自己了。因?yàn)槟憔褪鞘澜纾澜缇褪悄?；他們不是兩個(gè)分開(kāi)的實(shí)體。

Questioner: Would you please explain more fully what you mean by the world is me and I am the world?

發(fā)問(wèn)者：你能不能更詳細(xì)地解釋一下，你說(shuō)的世界就是我和我就是世界是什么意思？

Krishnamurti: Does this really need explaining? Do you want me to describe in detail what you are and show you that it is the same as what the world is? Will this description convince you that you are the world? Will you be convinced by a logical, sequential explanation showing you the cause and the effect? If you are convinced by careful description, will that give you understanding? Will it make you feel that you are the world, make you feel responsible for the world? It seems so clear that our human greed, envy, aggression and violence have brought about the society in which we live, a legalized acceptance of what we are. I think this is really sufficiently clear and let's not spend any more time on this issue. You see, we don't feel this, we don't love, therefore there is this division between me and the world.

克：這真的需要解釋嗎？你是想讓我詳細(xì)描述你是什么，并且指給你看這和世界的樣子是一樣的嗎？這解釋能讓你確信你就是世界嗎？給你一個(gè)符合邏輯順序的解釋?zhuān)附o你看原因和結(jié)果，你會(huì)因此確信嗎？如果你因詳細(xì)的描述而確信，那能讓你了解嗎？它會(huì)讓你感覺(jué)到你就是世界，讓你感覺(jué)到要對(duì)這個(gè)世界負(fù)責(zé)嗎？很明顯，是我們?nèi)祟?lèi)的貪婪、嫉妒、攻擊性和暴力造就了我們身處其中的這個(gè)社會(huì)，我們的樣子被合法化地接受了。我想這點(diǎn)真的十分清楚了，讓我們不要在這個(gè)問(wèn)題上再花時(shí)間了。你看，我們沒(méi)感覺(jué)到這點(diǎn)，我們不愛(ài)，所以就有了我和世界之間的這種分裂。

The Urgency of Change， ‘How to Live in This World?’

《轉(zhuǎn)變的緊迫性》之“怎樣活在這個(gè)世界上？”